Unsolved

00:00 In July of 1987, Antoinette Smith disappeared. 00:04 When Antoinette kissed her two daughters, Lisa and Rachel, goodbye that summer's day in Dublin, none of them had any idea that they would never see each other again. 00:16 But on Easter Sunday, 1988, a discovery made by children during a game of hide and seek changed everything. 00:33 I'm crime journalist Barry Cummins and I'm RTE presenter Katya Mia and this is Unsolved, an RTE true crime podcast series. 00:41 Each week we'll be taking an in-depth look at real Irish cases seeking justice for the victims of Ireland's unsolved crimes. 00:51 In part one, we learned about 27-year-old Antoinette Smith, her life with her two daughters in Clundalkin, and her trip to Slane with her friend Marie to see David Bowie in concert in July of 1987. 01:04 Antoinette had left her daughters in the care of their dad, Carl, and intended to spend the night in Marie's house after the concert. 01:12 Antoinette and Marie visited a nightclub in Dublin city centre after the gig, At around 2am, Marie returned home, but Antoinette stayed out. 01:22 When Antoinette never returned to pick up her daughters, Carol and Marie raised the alarm and started searching straight away. 01:29 The search led nowhere, until a fateful discovery on Easter Sunday, 1988, changed everything. 01:38 So on Sunday, the 3rd of April, 1988, Barry, a body is found in the Dublin mountains by a seven year old boy. This was a very sunny Easter Sunday in Dublin. And I suppose the weather conditions is something that's important to note. But the seven year old boy named Eamon is having an Easter Sunday picnic with his family, his two older sisters and his parents in the Dublin mountains. The family have parked, they've hiked. It's not a pro hike. It's just one for the family with the kids. And I suppose after the children finish eating, they start playing hide and seek around Glendale Mountain. 02:12 And this is where the discovery is made. Eamon, in the midst of playing hide and seek with his sisters, hides behind an uneven bit of bog land, specifically in a gully about six feet off the mountain track. Three quarters of a mile from the nearest road. Now, this is a really good hiding spot when you're thinking of hide and seek in the sense of the game. But he's eventually found by his sister. But rather than being happy that she found Eamon, the sister is immediately shocked and horrified by what she sees right behind Eamon. 02:44 Yeah, what she sees is a weathered plastic bag and what looks like a human body or part of a human body. 02:52 So you can imagine she's found her brother, found you, that kind of they're playing a game. And then in the same moment, she's looking behind him and she sees and she's young as well, just a year or two older than Eamon. 03:05 And she sees, but she knows that it just it's not right. It's not right. And it's scary. And they call their parents and it is a body. It's Angie. It's Antonette Smith. She's buried in Bogland. in off the road, well in off the road, in a really remote area. And you mentioned the different weather, Katia, that what happened was she'd been buried the previous year by her killer or killers beneath the turf, beneath the peat in this bog land. 03:39 But because it had rained a lot and then it was really dry, that the peat became flaky. And then water above it had washed that peat away or downstream. 03:50 So that part of Antoinette's body became exposed. The other part was still buried, in a sense, in the Bogland. 03:58 But the parents... Eamon's parents, when they looked, they knew immediately that this was a body. 04:04 Yeah. 04:05 And they're facing two things, an immediate thought of Eamon's dad. They have to get to raise the alarm, ring the guards, contact the guards, call to the guardee. But the first thing they do, and Eamon remembers this, This young boy remembers what his dad said was, first of all, let's say a prayer. 04:24 As a family, I can imagine. 04:25 Yeah, it's quite a shocking thing to discover that they'll each of them will keep with them for the rest of their lives. And Eamon only recounted this to RTE in a report I was doing about six years ago or so. 04:42 And it had stayed with them that that moment as a seven year old. 04:49 something you'll never forget, obviously. 04:52 But that at least in amongst all that indignity that Antoinette suffered in the Bogland, the first people to find her say a prayer for her. 05:01 And I think that is... 05:03 It means something, certainly means something to our family. 05:05 Definitely does. Now, Monday, 4th of April, 1988. And this is the morning where the state pathologist at the time, John Harbinson, visits the scene and examines the body in situ. 05:16 Yeah. 05:17 And when they are examining the body, the upper part is largely covered by grass and by bog land. Yeah. So it's in a pretty undignified condition. 05:27 Yeah. So the plastic bags, it turns out, are on Antoinette's head. There are two bags. that will be discovered. And they're actually over Antoinette's head. So they were visible, but then the rest of the upper part of her body is covered. But the lower part of her body has become exposed as well. 05:45 But it's completely removed. The body's removed over the following hours once the Gardaí and Professor Harbinson are at the scene. 05:54 They remove the body. 05:56 But John Harbison cuts open the first plastic bag because he wants to learn as much as possible. Still trying to figure out, is this a man or a woman? Yeah. She had been up there for nine months and exposed within that ground to the elements within the ground. And then when her body becomes exposed. uh, exposed in the open ground as well. So yes, um, there was no way she was ever going to be identified, um, visually up there. 06:27 Um, and at the stage that Professor Harbison was doing his inquiries initially, he didn't know, was it a male or female? 06:34 Um, but the first thing he also does is open up the first bag. And when he opens that bag, he realizes there's a second bag, um, So that's part of this horrible story that two plastic bags were tied tightly over Antoinette Smith's head. 06:53 And that's the way she was left in the ground. 06:56 There are suggestions of clothing disturbance. For example, the fly on the jeans is down. 07:02 Yeah. 07:02 So at this point, they take the body and they examine it for a week long postmortem. And they're doing this in the city morgue on Store Street. And there is a few discoveries made. Firstly, the wig. So when the plastic bags are removed from the body's head, the postmortem examiner goes to examine the body's hair and it comes away entirely. And what we remember from when we were chatting about Antoinette Smith over her life, she had dealt with alopecia. 07:28 In a perfect world, this murder would never have happened and Antoinette's privacy would be intact. She didn't want people to know she wore a wig. We all know now because it's part of how she was then identified. John Harbison didn't initially know it was a wig. 07:43 It came away as he was doing his inquiries. And that's when he saw the label Franco Ferretti, a particular wig maker and one that Antoinette often used. 07:54 And in addition to that, you know, the clothing is removed from the body for inspection and DNA testing. The clothes worn are jeans. The fly is undone on the jeans. There's no underwear and a top, no shoes as well. But the top is washed for inspection. It's a David Bowie Slane 1987 T-shirt, which was the T-shirt that Antoinette Smith was wearing at the time of her disappearance. 08:16 Yeah, I often think about that, the post-mortem examination and they wash one of the things they do is wash the T-shirt because they can't tell from the T-shirt anything at the when it's initially found. And it's only by putting it in this special wash that it then reveals its secret, which is the pink writing on the grey black T-shirt front and back, David Bowie and Slane 87 on the back. 08:40 So Again, Gardaí know, well, Angie was wearing a T-shirt like that when she was last seen. So the post-mortem is beginning to reveal different things. And when you talk about the clothing as well, Katia, not only the clothing found, the fact that Angie's shoes, footwear never recovered would indicate that to me that there's another crime scene somewhere that's never been identified. Perhaps wherever she was initially attacked, wherever she may have been murdered and then brought to that scene because the Texaco bag she had with her is never recovered. 09:18 Her footwear is never recovered. 09:21 Perhaps it was never in the bog at all. 09:24 So there's somewhere else perhaps that has never been identified as the location that whatever type of attack she suffered and however prolonged, we don't know where that was. 09:36 I think it's important to note that no one knew whether Antoinette had worn or not worn underwear to David Bowie that day, but the no underwear on her body and the jeans fly zipped down suggested sexual assaults. 09:49 I think they would definitely suggest that. And I would imagine that most people would think the motive for Antoinette's abduction would have been rape or sexual assault. But because her body lay in the bog for so long and her body was decomposed, it was never possible to prove that she had been sexually assaulted. 10:08 We know that the Gardaí at the time, they determined that this is Antoinette Smith, but they just need to legally confirm it so a murder investigation can be opened. Now, there were two parts of legal confirmation by the Gardaí. The first one was, does the key that was found on the body in Glendale Mountains, does that key fit the door? Antoinette's friend, as we remember at the time, she testified to the Gardaí. She said she'd given Antoinette the spare key to her house in the early hours of July 12th, 1987, outside La Mirage nightclub. 10:40 She was intending to spend the night there. And the Gardaí go to Marie's house in the Kilm-Hudrick estate in Clendocken and they test the key in the front door. 10:49 Yeah, so the key that Marie threw at Antoinette that night in July 1987 is found up in the bog with Antoinette's body. They go to Kilmahudrick Estate to put the key in the door and it works. So again, and they kind of already know as they go, well, they're expecting this is the key and it is. Is that enough to say this is Antoinette? I mean, it is Antoinette, but legally speaking, can you say it? They actually say, no, they need more. 11:20 And this is a time, though, before DNA advances, that there's no forensic matching of the body as being Antoinette. And this is where they go to one of Angie's brothers, Noel, and he ends up being asked to do something which is even to think about it now, it's harrowing. He did it. 11:42 What a brave man. So tough. But he went and he had to identify, visually identify Antoinette in terms of her teeth because she had a distinctive... tooth in the upper one of her upper teeth I think on the right hand side was set back remember I was saying about we all have distinctive things about it this was one thing about Antoinette and that her brother would know and he was asked to go and look at that part of the body in Store Street to give a visual identification and he did it it must have been so tough you know just imagining obviously if 12:19 Knowing that your sister has been missing for nine months, knowing it was discovered in the way it was discovered, and then having to do that legal confirmation with her dental records, just, yeah, it's heartbreaking for the family. But at this point, the Gardaí can legally confirm that this is Antoinette Smith. In fact, she has been found and she has been murdered. 12:39 Yeah, she has been murdered. And they say they know she's been murdered because of the way she's been found, the way she's been left. the plastic bags over her head. But to this day, we don't know how she was murdered. We don't know if the plastic bags caused her to suffocate. Was she alive when the bags were put over her head? And these were tied very tightly. The first bag is a kind of a knot and then tied. 13:05 And then the second one tied in the exact same way. 13:09 And it's something that many people have thought of. Was she alive when that happened? Or was that done after she had been murdered in a different way? But perhaps the killer or killers couldn't bear to look at Antoinette in some way. I don't know what the psychology. 13:25 Because you mentioned the first crime scene. So could it have been that if there was a first crime that occurred? Maybe sexual assault, but we're not quite sure. Was it a case that her head was covered at that point and then as well for her burial? It's horrific to think of. It's horrific to think of. 13:44 But I have as well. 13:46 So we know an awful lot. We know it was Antoinette. We know about the plastic bags. We don't know where she was murdered, but we know from the circumstances that somebody abducted and murdered Antoinette and murdered her either by strangling her, suffocating her or some other way. There were no other injuries of stab wounds or anything like that. 14:05 So it perhaps was a blow or blows to the head or... 14:12 those other ways I've described, because I have Antoinette's death certificate, which and it's I suppose it's quite cold as death certificates have to be. But in terms of the date and place of death, Date unknown, it says between 11th of July 1987 and 3rd of April 1988. So that vast a time. Place of death, place unknown, but body found at Glendoo Mountain Military Road, Glen Cree, County Wicklow. Doesn't actually say buried in bog, but we know that. 14:45 And then cause of death, coroner unable to ascertain the cause of death due to decomposition of the body. So whoever the murderer is, was successful or murderers successfully managed to hide the body and also to this day hide. 15:05 how they actually committed the murder. 15:07 Yeah. By late April 1988, Carol Smith is told about and informed about Antoinette Smith's death officially. At this point, his daughters haven't been informed and he is actually leaving work and heading towards home to, I suppose, tell the daughters the news of their mother's death. But the Gardie sort of beat him to this and it's something that to this day he's still not happy about. 15:35 Carl's not happy about it to this day. Lisa and Rachel are not and Lisa in particular because she has memory of being told. Yeah. The girls at this stage are eight and five years old. So a year has or nine months to a year has passed since their mom has disappeared. Yeah. There were seven and four then. Now they're eight and five. And age is important in trying to grasp memories of all of this. 16:00 Lisa remembers the Gardie coming to herself and to Rachel. And she remembers two Gardie and a nun. And the nun was praying. And two Gardie, two male Gardie, And as Lisa has described it to me, that one of the Gardys said something to her along the lines of, well, we have good news and we have bad news. 16:23 What would you like first? 16:25 And that Lisa was quite a hyper eight-year-old and she wanted the good news. There's many eight-year-olds. What kid wouldn't want the good news? What's the good news? Good news is we found your mom. 16:36 Bad news is she's dead. 16:38 And this is the way Lisa has described it to me, those words, exactly as I've said it. 16:43 I mean, the lack of sensitivity in that delivery alone. 16:46 Yeah. I mean, there's no easy way to tell children anything like that. 16:51 Certainly the way it was done is not the way Lisa or Rachel would ever want to have been told. Many people have views about that. Carl as well. Carl has said to me as well when I met him that it was something that He should have been the one to tell the kids or another family member. But it shouldn't have been Gardie and shouldn't have been the way they did it. 17:13 Yeah. Should have been a family member present in that room. 17:15 And that kind of stays with the family. And that initial upset continues through over decades when Gardie. 17:23 haven't solved the case. 17:24 Speaking of how she was let down prior you know when she initially went missing we know that there was no media reports of her as a missing person but by late April 1988 when Antoinette is declared illegally dead this is when RTE era reconstruction of her final known moments in the hopes of getting some more information from the public. 17:44 Yeah. And so having not done any reporting when she was missing, in fairness to RTE, they did do a very detailed report after her body is found and after it's a murder investigation and after the Gardaí are actually appealing for help. And they do a good reconstruction to try and jog memories in terms of what's known about Antoinette's movements at Parnell Street, down O'Connell Street. and even going around to Westmoreland Street, because as the investigation continues and Gardie reach out to more people, they're actually learning that there are reported sightings. 18:18 Now, imagine it's nine months after people have been out in the night out and people still have memories. I think partly because it's the David Bowie day, it's that. Such a memorable day. People will remember where were you that night or that kind of thing. So you can maybe identify it. You mightn't remember the date, but you'll remember the occasion. And so Garrity are able to build up a picture of reported sightings of Antoinette or somebody who is, you might say, most likely Antoinette. Sounds like Antoinette. 18:49 Or fits her description. 18:50 We do have some information here. We know R.T. reported her place of burial and her likely rough dates and times of death and burial. And a lot of tips come in here, but a few that are especially relevant. So 3.30 a.m. on the 12th of July, 1987, a woman matching Antoinette's description is reported as seen by a staff member of Abracababra in the takeaway on Westmoreland Street. So that's one. Yeah. There's another one between 3am and 4am on the 12th of July 1987. A woman matching Antoinette's description gets into a taxi with two men in Dublin city centre. 19:26 The three are dropped off in Rathfarnham. The two men's descriptions, both are early 20s, described as having rough Dublin accents. One is tall with short dark hair and knees that stick into the back of the driver's seat. The other has collar length hair and short and muscular and makes a dodgy joke to the taxi driver about robbing him. So none of these three people have ever come forward, which would you say you'd suggest, you know, the woman as part of that three could have been Antoinette Smith? 19:56 Could have been Antoinette, maybe most likely was Antoinette. Certainly if she was wearing the same T-shirt, she was at the concert, puts her geographically in and around that area. If she had gone to Abracababra or she's gone down that way, Why she's in a taxi heading for Ratfarnham, I don't know. Yeah, because that's nowhere near where she was going to go. She wants to get to Clendalkin. Um, maybe, uh, she is unaware of where the taxi's going or she doesn't hear or mishears or, uh, I don't know if it is, if it's her, I think it is her. 20:30 Yeah. 20:30 Um, because whoever it is has never come forward. Um, whoever the men are have never come forward. Yeah. Why? I would ask, what are they hiding? Um, um, that they're distinctive and that these kind of dodgy joke, as you say, about robbing the taxi. They're either messers or they're up to real no good in some way. 20:51 And we know they're not the two men that she was with in La Mirage nightclub because those two men went home. They had an alibi. The taxi driver had a receipt of where he dropped them. So they've been ruled out here. So these are two different men in this sighting between 3 a.m. and 4 a.m. on the 12th of July. There's another one here, 12th of July, 1987, a dog walker around 6 a.m. in the morning or just before 6 a.m., a dog walker is walking uphill through Crewe Wood, about two miles from where Antoinette's body was buried. 21:24 And as he's walking up, a man described by him as late 20s, 5'6", dark, long-ish hair is walking down. And the dog walker says hello to this man. The man does not answer. And out of curiosity, the dog walker looks behind him and he sees a second man at the bottom of the hill. So these two men walk off together and neither of these two men have come forward to, I suppose, rule themselves out as well. 21:50 Yeah. And it's again, here we are talking about two men. There's a lot of two men's here that we're we're kind of looking at. But that is these are the leads that Gardaí have followed and continue to follow. 22:02 Who was that man walking down out of Crewellwood to meet up with the other guy? What was he doing up at the top of the mountains before six o'clock in the morning? Quite entitled to go for a walk. Anybody can do that. 22:15 I mean, was he wearing walking gear? Did we know this? 22:18 No, he wasn't. He wasn't. He wasn't dressed for a hike in whatever way he was dressed. It just the more you think about it. It's the strangest thing. Yeah. And it sticks with Gardaí to this day that it's never been explained. And the fact that two men, although it's two miles from where Antoinette's body is found nine months later, Was there a secondary crime scene around that area? Was that where Antoinette might have been brought to a car park near Crewellwood or somewhere around that area first? 22:55 Again, her shoes never being found or the Texaco bag where they buried somewhere else for some reason, any reason. So it's a lead that's never been bottomed out. Yeah, it's the strangest thing. 23:08 And just out of curiosity, if people don't know, how far would Crewellwood be from Rathfarnham area? 23:15 It's close, but it's a drive. It's a good few miles as well. So it's out that part of South County Dublin and beyond Rathfarnham, you're very quickly into the mountains. And you can quite quickly within 10 minutes drive or so be at Crewellwood. 23:29 So it fits the narrative of something having happened maybe in Rathfarnham. and then extending on to Crewellwood and then extending on to Glendue Mountain, that it's all heading that direction. And because Antoinette's body is found in such a remote area in off a main road, again, if her body was carried or dragged a particular distance, Two people would have been easier able to do that than one. 24:01 So again, fits the narrative of perhaps two killers. Yeah. But we don't know. That's the thing. We just know where Antoinette was found. 24:09 We don't know where the crime began, the attack began, where the abduction began. 24:17 where was it in Dublin city or was it Rathfarnham or is it somewhere else entirely I mean there's so much to this story and despite her body being found despite multiple requests for information from the Gardaí despite long-term commitment from her family to get justice for her no one has ever been arrested for Antoinette's murder no and it I think it's that's one of the most shocking things that 24:42 This particular murder, we know of other women who've disappeared and who we can now say have been murdered and their families know they've been murdered. Society knows, but the killers have never been caught. In Antoinette's case, she would still be in that category, but for Eamon and his sisters playing hide and seek that day and for the weather having moved the bog land a particular way, perhaps if they hadn't found her that day, the bog might have shifted again to cover her over again. 25:10 We don't know. 25:11 But she's in the category of a woman who is missing, murdered and then the body found. 25:18 And you would hope that you would have hoped that that would have led to more progress, more a breakthrough in the case. And it hasn't. And no arrests in all that time, which has really upset her family who have always longed for an answer and for the person or people responsible to be caught. 25:40 Yeah. 25:41 So it's and I think another part of this is because whoever it was was not caught, The fear is that they became emboldened and did it again. Yeah. And the failure to catch Antoinette's killer may well have inadvertently led to other murders happening. 25:59 The Dublin mountains, you know, they've long been used to hide bodies of murder victims. Just top of mind, Patricia Doherty's body was found three years later, about a mile from where Antoinette's body was found. 26:10 Yeah. And that's what, again, that case has never been solved. Yeah. Uh, so it may not be linked at all. Um, but, uh, Patricia was last seen in Tala where she lived, uh, and, uh, her body was found buried six months after she disappeared. Um, and then there, since then other women have disappeared, Annie McCarrick and Jojo Dollard and Deirdre Jacob and so many other women in the nineties who've never been found. And perhaps, uh, the same has happened to those women, that they lie hidden in different places. 26:44 Barry, were there ever any suspicions of a serial killer involved in this? 26:49 Yeah. And it's just suspicions. I mean, there's no proof. And we all have our theories. And I think that, and I think theories are important because I actually think when you look at this, sadly, there are so many men who have proven themselves to be murderers or would be murderers And we've spoken before about Robert Howard, one man who murdered Arlene Arkinson and Hannah Williams. 27:16 So in two different countries, he committed murders. And he was at large in 1987. So I don't know where he was. I'd love to know where he was. But he's the kind of person capable of this type of crime. But so are so many other men who've been caught since for other attacks. And it may be none of them. This is the whole thing that the danger is, I think, in fixating on one person. 27:44 And somebody else is getting away with it. 27:45 Yeah. 27:46 One of Antoinette's daughters spoke in a documentary on RTE a few years ago about her theory, her feeling. And she feels that Larry Murphy may be the person responsible. The man who we know abducted, raped and then attempted to murder a woman in County Wicklow. in 2000 and he was about to use a plastic bag to try and suffocate his victim when he was disturbed by two hunters so this is understandably in a sense the family are coming up with ideas and theories and certainly that's a feeling that one of the daughters has but I think it's better we ask all these questions that there are actually a number of men we know who are capable of doing this and you have to wonder was it one of them 28:32 And the Green family, Rachel, Lisa Smith, Carl Smith are people that are still out there asking questions. I know you have a relationship with Antoinette's two daughters, Rachel and Lisa Smith. And in 2013, they actually went out and did a public campaign in search of justice for their mum. 28:50 Yeah. So Gardie had been sporadically looking at the case down the decades, but it actually took the family and it took the daughters to go to Gardaí to basically say, what are you doing about my mom's murder? What are you doing? Tell me. And so Gardaí then had to account for what they had done or not done for many years. And some Gardaí, in fairness, have done an awful lot of work on the case and continue to do. But it's Lisa and Rachel who have engaged with Gardaí down through the years Aunt Carl and Antoinette's brothers and other relatives as well, all with different theories and all asking for things to be investigated. 29:32 And one of the things that came out when the family went to Gardaí to say, tell us what you can tell us and tell us what you're going to do. Gardaí had to go and assemble all the case file. They had to go to different Garda stations because different things have been done in different stations down the years and trying to assemble all the information and all the witness statements and everything else. it became apparent that not everything had been kept safe. 29:58 And the way the Gardaí described it to me was that there were evidential deficiencies. 30:04 Things have been lost. Yeah, that's in layman's terms. That's what it is. 30:08 Is that like a case of, you know, information being passed through different Gardaí stations, offices? 30:16 Or is it just the fact that it was over time and different teams were looking at this case? 30:20 Yeah, I think it's a mixture of different things. Over time, things get lost. Record keeping wasn't as good as it should have been, perhaps. 30:28 A lot of the information and say the documents that I've looked at from 1987 and 88, these were typed. This is back typewriters. Computers weren't a big thing in use in the Gardaí back then. So it's all a paper trail. There's very little digital information evidence from back then. It's all bits of paper and paper can get lost and are misfiled and all that kind of stuff. And that can affect a case. And so many cases in the 80s and 90s fell through the cracks because Gardaí were moved on to other cases. 31:02 And there were other murders to be investigated. So people had to allot their time in whatever way. But in all of that, Antoinette Smith's case became forgotten about. 31:12 Yeah. 31:13 And there weren't many media appeals down the decades. It was only when the family started asking in around 2013 or so, that's when Gardie really started ratcheting up the publicity around the case. 31:28 And I think this is why the case of Antoinette Smith like sticks with so many people, because she was such a dignified woman. She cared about the way she looked, her hair, how she dressed and then to die in such an undignified way and then to be failed in so many ways, not just her, but her family as well. You know, when she first went missing, it wasn't reported on properly. It wasn't taken seriously at the beginning. And then her family were really the ones at the helm of, you know, her search and for more answers and in search of Antoinette herself. 32:00 And I suppose the case files going missing. So like the family have not only had to deal with the trauma of losing a loved one, but also being failed in a way. 32:10 Yeah. And I think there's a mentality around it all that we're now talking much more openly and importantly about unsolved murders. 32:20 and the legacy of not solving them and what that means. 32:24 I've won just one of the news reports from the time. It's kind of instructive. So Antoinette's body has been found. And this is the Irish Independent, Tuesday, 5th of April, 1988. Is this the front page? Front page, yeah. So now I would say if that happened, if it happened today, it'd be top story on the front page. I just know it would. Yeah. The way journalism is now. But back then, it's actually in fairness, it's on the front page. You have to say that, but it's actually right at the bottom and it's, uh, there's a headline body in hill grave. 32:59 And then there's about five, six paragraphs, uh, outlining that murder squad detectives are now investigating the discovery of a body up in the Dublin mountains. 33:11 It is reported, but it's in terms of, it's not getting the priority that I would say it should get. 33:19 This should be something in bold right in front of everyone's faces. You know, this is a young woman in her 20s, mother of two, that has been missing and now murdered in such a horrific way. 33:29 And it's, I'm bringing my kind of hindsight and everything to it now but I just think that helps to inform how maybe Antoinette didn't get the priority down the years from so many different quarters and that when the case seems so hard to solve it wasn't solved. When there was no secondary crime scene found, the cause of death never properly established, no prime suspect jumping out, all of this meant that Antoinette's file maybe went to the back of the list when I would say because of all of that, it actually should be it should be top of the list. 34:12 Yes. And we know next year, 2027, it's going to be the 40 year anniversary of Antoinette's disappearance and death. Right now, there is a team in Bray that is dedicated to this case. 34:25 Yeah, and it's a good time for people to give information because Gardaí will listen. And Gardaí, some of whom would have been just kids or maybe weren't even born when Antoinette was murdered, are the ones who are now investigating it. And they're reaching out, looking for anybody to get in contact with any bit of information, identifying any suspect or where the murder might have happened or anyone who has spoken about it down the years, all of this. And that 40th anniversary, Katia, next year is really important for Antoinette's family as well, because they will be marking that in a particular way. 35:01 And I know that they will be celebrating Angie's life as well, that so much of What we talk about is her murder, but also everything she brought. She brought life to her girls. She brought light to so many other people. She meant so much to so many people. She mattered to so many people. And that's the way her family will be remembering her on the 40th anniversary. But hopefully by then, so we're talking July 2027, hopefully by then there'll be some breakthrough in this case. 35:40 With Unsolved, we don't just want to talk about the crimes. We want to help the victims, the survivors and the families seek justice. 35:48 If you know anything, have seen anything or remember anything about any of the cases discussed in our series, please email us at unsolved at rte.ie. 35:59 We'll be back next time with another true Unsolved case. Find us on RTE Listen app or wherever you get your podcasts.