Kenty - Paul Kent NRL Podcast

00:00 But the incentive was purely and solely money after he signed a five-year deal where he said he's going to come in and turn the club around. 00:08 G'day and welcome to Kenty Prime Time. Here we are today with the great Paul Kent and the great Paul Crawley as well. Crawles, welcome mate. Good to have you back. 00:18 Thank you. 00:18 How are you? Good? Really good. 00:20 Yeah. And what about this time of the season? I love this time of the season. I was only thinking about it the other day, was we've got all these great games coming up. We've gone through that origin stage and the lull that follows it, but At the moment, you're quite excited. You know, I think there's four or five teams that I think can win the comp. And there's probably a couple of others that will probably get into the eight that I think could cause an upset or two going through. 00:42 Who are those four or five teams? 00:44 Well, I think you've obviously got Penrith and the Roosters and you've got the Warriors and then you've got the Sharks. I think they're standouts. Give me a chance. I think all those sides are a chance. I think Cronulla's improved out of sight from what we've seen so far. And then you've got the Dolphins. who on their day can do anything. I think the Bulldogs, if they get there, I think the Dogs have got the sort of game that can rattle teams, especially, you know, different sides in there this year. I think that, you know, I'm not saying they can win the comp, but I think they can do some damage. 01:15 Kent, do you agree with that? 01:16 Yeah, I think, look, In the history of the competition, no one's ever won from outside the fore in this current format. So we need to be mindful of that. So that puts the job ahead of the likes of the Dolphins if they stay where they're at and whatnot. 01:32 But there's a couple of teams there, for example, the Bulldogs. They're like the kryptonite for Penrith. 01:41 Roosters have a real hard time beating Penrith. 01:45 Not anyone else, they tend to be able to put a score on just about every other team. But for whatever reason, their sole football doesn't match Penrith. But there's every chance you get to the finals and someone takes care of Penrith for them. 01:58 Like the Bulldogs or maybe Cronulla. So someone that go out and just play that. tough, aggressive style, just get into them, Warriors can do it as well, take care of the Panthers for them, then the Roosters are back in the fight, so to speak. I don't think the Roosters can beat Penrith twice throughout the finals, if that happens, if they finish one and four, for example, which is a possibility given the way the draw is looking. Penrith, the Roosters got a little bit of a tough draw, whereas Cronulla's got a fairly easy draw and the Warriors don't have too tough a draw as well. 02:31 So they could both finish ahead of the Roosters if things get a bit tough for the Roosters. Obviously injuries are going to play a big part of it as well. The Panthers have got Yeah, they've got a few players out at the moment. McLean's out. Mitch Kennedy won't be back for a while. 02:47 The Panthers have made a big change at six, right? With Blaise De Lange and Jack Cobb. 02:51 That's a form change, though. That's not an injury change. 02:53 Yeah, so what do you think? Do you think we've had one week of that? Will that be what they stick with now? Look... 03:00 Blaise Talunghi's got more talent than Jack Cogger. Jack Cogger's tough. Jack Cogger brings out the best in Cleary, you know. Good judges speak about the way that he straightens up Cleary. He makes him run the ball. He did it in the 2023 grand final. He did it again last weekend. He's got a pinpoint perfect kick, setting up tries on the weekend for Jenkins, you know what I mean? Like he's just got – he adds a bow to Nathan. He takes – He takes the emphasis for Nathan to be in every single play away and it just frees him up a little bit. 03:35 But in saying that, you could also argue you want Cleary touching the ball as much as possible. 03:40 Well, he allows Cleary to play what he sees a little bit more. 03:45 Whereas Telungi sort of plays that system type footy. The big improvement there for Penrith though is defensively. Telungi's defence was just dropping off. And I think Ivan persisted with it as long as he could all year. 03:58 But in the end he thought, you know what, it's just not getting... 04:02 to the standard I needed to become the finals. Teams were clearly aiming their attack through that section of Penrith's defence. So Ivan's made a call there. So while we do focus a little bit on how it affects their attack, defensively, the reason they've gone for the switch. 04:20 You think back to Kenny last year, even looking at it, I know they're a completely different team, but the Raiders last year on their right edge with Fogarty and Timica and how teams all season just cut them to shreds on that edge and the Raiders didn't change. 04:38 And they thought they could get it right and they didn't. Well, now Ivan's gone the other way and he said, no, we will make the change now. 04:44 Yeah, it's really good coaching from Ivan to do it. He's done it far enough out from the finals. 04:51 Sometimes you can hang on too long and then there's not enough change or there's not enough time to get used to the change. Ivan has persisted with it all season through the origin period and he's made the change now far enough out from the finals that he can... 05:14 sort of like they can get in their groove now. They can just really sort of get in their rhythm with Cogger there. Cogger's not a one or two week replacement, I don't believe. I think he's there for the long haul unless something spectacular happens. 05:28 Cross, what are your thoughts on Cogger? 05:29 I love everything he represents. I think, you know, you heard him talking about it even earlier in the week when he was interviewed and he's standing there and he's got a big shiner. 05:38 He got smashed to smithereens on the weekend, but then he's talking about Blaze and how Blaze will come back into the team. And I've gone through this in my career and it will make him a better player. And he's just such a great clubman. And ever since he came into the system up at Newcastle, he was always so tough. You know, just a little brave guy that always punched above his weight. And, you know, he's got that premiership memory already from 2023. And then he has to go away and he bides his time. And he just waits for his opportunity to come. 06:10 And he's always there to do exactly what the coach wants when he needs him. 06:15 Interesting decision for Penrith, obviously. Blaise DeLange is up November 1st. 06:20 whether they re-sign him beyond next season. 06:22 I think they will. Look, he's still a kid, was. He used to learn his footy. 06:28 Losing his position now, it's funny because that used to happen quite regularly in footy. When you had reserve grade, it was nothing for a coach to say, listen, mate, you've been off for a few weeks. I'm going to put you back to reserve grade. 06:43 It's a bit slower down there. It's a little bit less intense. You go back, you get your confidence back, you find your rhythm again, and then you come back up. And there wasn't that cloud over it that we see now when a player gets dropped. But I actually think it should happen more often. Because sometimes you see some coaches, to your point last year with the Raiders, Raiders persisted and persisted, hoping to get it right. 07:06 And they just never did. And in the end, they got exploited through the finals, through that defensive weakness. And... 07:13 Ivan's – I think it's really good coaching from Ivan what he's done. He has made a decision and he's made it at the perfect time. 07:21 And compare that culture too to what we saw recently at the Tigers. And clearly he's done this with numerous players where they've been up and they've been down and they've had the season of their life and yet they've got – Rob Jenkins this year, great example of a guy that was given his opportunity – He lifted for what the coach wanted and he's been there all season. 07:46 The Raiders did it a couple of times with Tamale this season. They dropped him back down to New South Wales Cup. Crawles, do you think people are more reluctant to do that because of the difference between NRL and New South Wales Cup compared to the old days when first grade and second grade might have been a bit closer? 08:03 I sometimes think these days a lot of coaches probably persist and don't do it because they may be scared of... 08:10 the reaction. 08:11 Yeah. It's keeping the players on side. Yeah. You've got to keep the dressing room these days. In the old days, a coach had autonomy, and if he wanted to drop a player, and it was accepted back then, you could drop a player, put him in reserve grade, like I said. These days, a kid gets dropped, he turns out the following week, he's wearing different colours. You know what I mean? It's not like he's at the reserve grade side. Back in the day, First grade, reserve grade, and whether it was 21s, 23s, or third grade, whatever it was, they all trained together, Tuesday nights and Thursday nights. 08:46 Team would get named. Coach would sit down and read it out in front of everybody, sitting there listening for your name, you know what I mean? And it was accepted that that happened, that you went up and down. And very few players had this divine right to just be picked in first grade automatically. Yeah. 09:06 Even, you know, I was thinking about this the other day. When Tommy Redonigas, who was the Australian halfback, he was the very first NRL player to be sighted, right? He got into Ernie Garland one day when they played Parramatta. And Ernie Garland was a Parramatta hooker. Anyway, he got sighted, first player to be sighted after the game. And he got a couple of weeks for it. And when he came back, he came back through reserve grade. That's just what happened. Now, that was slightly uncommon because he was such a good player. 09:38 But very few players came straight back in the first grade if they'd had time out. And a lot of players could get dropped for a week. Regular first graders get dropped for a week or two just as a wake-up call. Mate, you've been off for a few weeks. Get your ass in the gear and start playing a bit better. And that was a way of incentivising, I suppose, players. These days, though, Mate, they go straight to their managers so they want to release and want to go somewhere else. 10:06 Using that example, it would be like Nathan Cleary coming back through New South Wales Cup. 10:09 Yeah, well, you probably wouldn't do it with Cleary. But, yeah, for example, you know, like Tolongi would not have been blinked at back in the day. 10:19 And there's a lot of players that wouldn't have been blinked at. But like I said, you do it. You look at what happened to the Dragons earlier this year with the prop forward, you know what I mean? Like he didn't get picked in first grade. His first phone call was to his manager, get me out of here. 10:33 You look at the Warriors too. They've done it with Metcalf this year. You know, Tamari Martin came into the side and he held his gloves up from the moment he arrived on the field in that first game. Webster stuck solid. I think the other... thing that you've got to take into account these days, where it's changed too, Paul, is that in those days you're talking about in the old New South Wales Rugby League, they had more depth than they've got now. Yeah. That's true. So Penrith have got that luxury where they've got the depth. Yeah. And the quality, whereas the Raiders last year mightn't have had someone to come in and take those spots. 11:07 Yeah, well, that's a fair point too. And so you're almost pushed into a corner that you know what this one player can deliver and you're hoping for his best. Yeah. But if the best doesn't come, you're sort of caught between a rock and a hard place on it. Yeah, and you keep trying to coach it. 11:21 Let's talk a little bit about Tamari Martin, which you just mentioned. 11:24 Obviously, what... 11:25 what Webster's done this year at the Warriors with keeping Metcalfe in New South Wales Cup or on the bench and playing Tamari Martin. Is that an example of good coaching? Is that an example of somebody looking to the future with Metcalfe not being there? What's your opinion on that, what he's done there? 11:41 I think on two fronts, it's good coaching and it's good persistence by the player. Like Tamari Martin is a wonderful story of persistence, isn't he? Like if you go back and trace through that bloke's career, he's 30 years of age now, but he came across from New Zealand, I'm pretty sure, and went to Keebra Park on the Gold Coast and then ended up in the West Tigers system and then from there made his debut for Penrith in 2016, played in a grand final for the Cowboys the following season when Thurston was injured and then he got that brain bleed on him. 12:16 Brain bleed, yeah. And so he was forced into retirement and we were speaking about this before, then he ended up playing local league in New Zealand and then from there the Warriors picked him up And that came on the back of Tenor Boyd, who himself was a discard basically from the Gold Coast. And Metcalfe was leading the Dally Ems when he got injured last year. 12:38 And he was a discard from Cronulla. 12:39 He was, yes. So Webster's shown too with good coaching and a good system and giving belief to these guys, it sets up your whole system. You don't have to go and pay $1.2 million for a playmaker. 12:52 That's what I find interesting about it is – There's a lot of, yeah, one of my pet hates, which everyone knows. Coach gets a job at a club and he says, mate, it's going to take me three years to get this roster into shape. And you think, well, mate, you know what? 13:08 You shouldn't have three years. You got the job because everyone knew the club was going shit house. 13:14 And you got the job because of that. So your job is to try and fix them immediately. And you've got to put steps in immediately that at least give us some green shoots and a little bit of hope that there's going to be improvement immediately. You haven't got three years. That's a statement made to buy time from fans, right? 13:32 What Webster has shown at the Warriors, with the fact that Luke Metcalf was his starting halfback, had a brilliant season last year until he got injured, had the Warriors going. They've been flying all year this year, again with Metcalf. Then it became Tanner Boyd when Metcalf was out. 13:52 Tanner Boyd was another journeyman halfback that hadn't really found his feet at a club. 13:59 Then he got injured. So then he goes to Tamari Martin, who's got that colourful background, who was playing local league after the brain bleed, went and played local league in New Zealand just because he wanted to play footy again and the Warriors got him through that. 14:14 And what I've just shown is a coach who has been able to find with three different halfbacks... 14:23 A way to coach, to get them to play the type of footy that he needs them to play and he needs them to get the team to play. 14:31 And that's just really good coaching. And that's not a coach looking for excuses. He could have had excuses after Metcalf went. Well, mate, we've lost our halfback. He didn't make that excuse. He could have had it then double down after Tanner Boyd went. 14:46 But he didn't do that either. Instead, he put all his work into Tamari Martin to the point where Metcalf sits on the bench. Now, that's not a punishment for Metcalf because he's leaving to go to the Dragons next year. That's acknowledgement of the job that Martin is doing and how well Webster is coaching them. 15:06 It's a great story, Webster, because he's not that celebrated ex-footballer that there's this compulsion to have around the game. 15:15 And he's gone away. When you see the game, there's a lot of players who come through the game at different points who are very clever and have a really innate understanding of the game. 15:31 But they mightn't make it as a player. Trent Robinson's another one. Trent Robinson came through and he's a front rower whose intellect for the game was at the highest level. Physically, he just didn't have the body to do what his brain wanted him to do. Justin Holbrook's another. 15:47 Holbrook came through and he was a clever halfback, but he was too slow and too small to do what his brain needed him to do. 15:56 But he still did the best he could do with what he had. 16:00 But what we're finding out about these kinds of guys, and Webster's another one, Webster didn't have an illustrious rugby league career as a player. 16:09 But he understood the game. He knows how to teach the game. He's gone and done his education as an assistant coach and a junior coach and all the things he needed to do. And he's succeeded at every level there. He was coming through the West Tiger system. Everyone thought, mate, this kid's got to be a really good coach one day. Ivan then came in to coach West Tiger, saw how good he was, took him to Penrith. 16:35 Well, he was put in as the interim there for a little while at West Tigers, wasn't he? I think it was after Taylor got sacked. 16:41 Yeah, and look. 16:42 And he has no NRL history as a player. 16:45 No, he didn't play. But he clearly knows his footy. But more than that, he clearly knows how to teach it. Yeah. And he knows how to put the right pieces in place. 16:57 And the fact that they're now in their third string halfback, the Warriors, and they're still competitive every week, they're still sitting third, I think they are. 17:07 It is just a testament to what he can do as a coach. 17:11 Every club looks at it, and I'm sure you have as well, but over the years you talk to clubs when they're looking for a coach, It's very hard for them, some clubs. And they sit there and they'll say to you, you're getting conversations with them, who you're looking for, who you're interviewing and all that sort of business. And every now and then they're like, well, mate, what do you think of so-and-so? What have you heard about him? 17:33 And sometimes clubs aren't, any wiser than anybody else on some people. And you sit there and think, mate, these guys have got to make a decision here and they don't know what they're doing. They don't know how to get the right decision. 17:46 Sometimes they're scared to take a chance with a guy like Webster because he doesn't have the profile. 17:52 Exactly. 17:53 And, you know, like, and then the Warriors, to their credit, they've obviously done their homework, found out what sort of man he is. And what I've really loved about his coaching over there is that, and he talks about it publicly, is, is how every single player in their system is careful and how they want to coach them and they want to teach them. Yeah. And he doesn't just talk about it. He then does it. You know, when there happens to be an injury, instead of bringing someone from outside in over the top, he just deals with it. 18:24 They did it with Jackson Ford's another one. He was a huge loss. 18:27 Yeah. 18:28 And another reason why they could have fallen over was But they haven't. 18:32 I saw some comments from Jackson Ford when he came over. He said that Webster pulled him aside and was talking about how he carried the ball in his left hand and he was telling him things that he'd never, ever heard before. Yeah. And that's one of the reasons why he signed for the Warriors, because of the knowledge that Webster provided him about his own game. 18:49 Game starts in two. Got to be quick. 18:54 You need something quick? I got something blistering. Five for 25 from points bet. 18:59 It's like hot sauce, but for sport. 19:02 Five taps, and it's on. 19:04 Yeah, that's hot. 19:05 Aw, thanks, babe. 19:07 Five for 25. Only available on PointsBet. Yeah, that's built differently. Imagine what you could be buying instead. For free and confidential support, call the number on the screen or visit the website. 19:18 I want to ask you, Crawls, about another player and another half who is now... 19:25 gone to another level, and that's Nico Hines, who, you know, played Origin Football 2023, from the bench 24 he started, got dropped, you know, pretty publicly. 19:37 But this season, Fitzy seems to have been able to install some kind of new confidence in him, and he's playing career-best football now. 19:45 Well, you think about, again, you think about all the questions that we've had over Cronulla, and particularly Nico in recent years, And Fitzy, instead of going and looking for the next best thing, he's worked and he's coached these players and he's coached them to the next level. And I think there's no better example than Nico right now because he's playing with confidence that we've never seen before. And this 32 kicks in a row is the prime example of that for me because he spoke after the game the other day about this and he knows what the record is now and he's counting them as he goes along. 20:23 But he's also, he's acknowledged that instead of shying away from the fact that, you know, not talking about it or saying, oh, I'm not thinking about it. He's actually saying, yeah, I am thinking about it, and he's backing himself to do it. 20:35 That's a sign of mental strength too. 20:37 Yeah, which again fits his coach that into this team. And that's what I love about Cronulla at the moment is that, you know, if they do happen to go somewhere this year, no one deserves more credit than the coach because he's persisted and he's coached them to be a better football team than they were. And don't forget, they've made the last two prelim finals and they've played finals footy every year under Fitzy. And they're probably a few of them are at their last chance this year to go to the next level. But he hasn't discarded them. 21:08 He's just gone on and done his job. 21:10 Yeah. But it's a really good sign for Nico in regards to his mental strength, which has always been that sort of... 21:16 that little area that clubs have tested him on, put him under pressure and tested his capacity to see things through. And... 21:28 When you see players interviewed and they're in denial, oh, really? They pretend. It's everywhere. Everyone's talking about it. But they're saying, oh, I don't think about it. I don't read the papers. Yeah, that sort of stuff. Don't read the papers. I don't think about it. Which Nico has done in the past, but he's not doing that now. Exactly. See, that's the development in him. Because the reality is it is there. It is being spoken about. And every time, like I said to Woz earlier this week on Blitz, I think it was Kato went over in the last couple of minutes, and he was like six inches in from the sideline. 22:03 And I thought to myself at the time, oh, this is going to test him, okay? And I thought, yeah, jokingly, I said, this is where you say to, like, look, the hammy's a bit tight. Do you want to take this one to keep the record intact? But in the end, the try wasn't allowed, so he didn't take the kick, right? But Nico has been nailing him from the sideline, and he's embraced him. Where is that? 22:26 And all the self-help books, all that sort of bullshit you talk about, and you see that in players, when you just acknowledge where you're at and you accept it, and then you find a way to deal with it, which is what he's doing, which is every kick now, this is 27, this is 28, this is 29. So it's in his mind. 22:46 But he's stepping up to that challenge. And that's the one thing... 22:51 many ways i think this probably gives canola fans hopes is that's what we've been sort of waiting for from nico because he there was a fragility to him there for a period uh you know he has had a indifferent sort of background we all know that and things have been tough for him but there was a period there where and you see this sometimes they play the part rather than be the part In the head, it's all about how others see them and things like that. Nico's just playing now. 23:21 He's changed the role too, Fitz, which is he's kept a seven on his back, but he's playing like a six. He's running the ball more, but Braden Trindle's doing a lot more of the set-up work and the steering the team around the park and all that business. And I think that's been good for Nico because I don't think Nico, even though he won the Dallium in 2022 as a... 23:42 as a halfback, and when he was essentially playing a proper halfback role back then, I don't think that's his best. 23:51 That's how you get the best out of him. I think you need him to play that, almost that secondary role where he just, he plays off what he sees, he runs the ball more, you give him a run first mentality. 24:00 He's running with intent too. Yeah. Like he's running to score a try. He's running to make a difference. That's the other thing I thought on the weekend too, last weekend, about Fitzy. I... 24:11 He's always been so composed in the coach's box. You know, he shows little emotion. But on the weekend, even before the game, they had vision there where he was hugging Talakai. I know it was his milestone match, but he's given him a big hug. Then he's having a big talk to someone else. And then when those last two tries came, or that non-try and the one that followed... He was pumping on the window like he was Jason Riles and Trent Robinson, you know what I mean? He was showing what we haven't seen. And to me, that came across as a coach that wants his players to know, I'm with you, we can go to the next level and this is the time where we're going to rise to the challenge that's ahead of us. 24:54 And they need to do it. 24:54 Look, it's a tough – I don't think Cronulla have ever played better than what they are now under Fitzy. 25:02 Yeah. 25:03 but there's still five more weeks to the final, so they're gonna have to really be up for a long time. That's gonna be the concern for them because it's five weeks to the finals and a four-week finals campaign where you've gotta be up. 25:18 I know there's two ways you go into the finals. You're either, you're idling high, which is what Penrith do, which is what Melbourne do, and carry it through the finals. And then there's other teams that go on momentum runs where, As it gets closer to the finals, they get better and better. Each week just snowballs into a better performance. Brisbane did that last year. The Roosters tend to do it that way as well. 25:44 So Cronulla by default are going to have to hold their form a little bit. Maybe have a little dip here and there, I don't know, between here and the semifinals time. It's going to be tough for them to... to maintain that level, I think, for the next nine weeks. 25:57 You've got to stay healthy too, don't you? Like Braley, Fanua, Blake, them sort of guys. 26:03 What do you think about the role change of Fanua Blake now coming off the bench? 26:08 Again, when you think about doing what you've got to do for the team, a lot of blokes would probably take that as a bit of a... A slight, wouldn't they? But for Nua Blake, he changed the game against South when he came off the bench because they got that early stuff out of the way and then he just came on and completely changed the tempo of the game. 26:28 They play on the back of that. 26:30 Again, that's good coaching. 26:32 That's really good coaching because most teams will have a dip when they go to their rotations midway through the first half. They'll come back just a little bit. 26:46 Fitz has clearly noticed that, and to counteract that, he's taken one of his strike forwards and put him on the bench, and instead of taking him off at 20-odd minutes, he's putting him on. 26:57 Now, it sounds fine in theory to do that, but back to what we talked about a little bit earlier, that's where you also have... 27:06 Players get in the shits about that. Every player wants to start. Everyone wants to start. Everyone wants a number lower than 13 on their back. And so if you say to a guy, listen, I'm going to bring you off the bench, it does get some noses out of joint, even though it really, particularly for the middle forwards, it's... 27:23 Sometimes you play more minutes by coming off the bench than some of the middles do by starting. But that just means Cronulla are really being able to maintain their momentum in that second period, in the first half, and obviously coming out at halftime. Well, that broke Zaus last week. 27:41 And there was him, Talakai, and I think Hazleton too. The three of them, and South were way understrength, we know that, but it killed them. 27:50 But South also had, and that's where you go back to coaching, mate. Fitz, he sat there and looked at the South's team and thought, mate, they're weak, respectfully. 28:00 their bench is weak. 28:01 Oh, God, yeah, yeah. 28:02 So, you know what? This is where we're going to win the game. So, this is what I'm going to do. You guys have got to come on and you guys, that's where the game's going to be won. It's going to be set up here in the first 20 minutes where essentially the rule, you know, I'm sure the message was, Guys, just hold them. Just don't, you know, just come out, start fast. Don't let them get away to a good start on us. And then when we roll in the big guns halfway through the first half, then we'll get them. And that's, that's the way it unfolded. They, they, what they fell behind six nil there early on, but, By the time the rotation started through the middle, they just started to steamroll through the middle of the Rabbitohs. 28:39 We've spoken a lot about coaching with Fitzy and with Webster. I'm going to ask you, are those guys coach of the year? Who else is in the conversation? Holbrook, where does he sit? 28:50 Holbrook's way up there, like what Holbrook's done too. Holbrook nearly gets it for me. I can't remember... 28:57 for a long time, Newcastle playing with the fight that they've got this year, even after they lost Brown and Lucas against the Chooks. 29:04 They've had a lot of injuries this year. 29:06 They got beaten by a point and they play so brave. And when Ponga was out earlier in the season and Brown was out, they kept holding their gloves up. And he's done a remarkable job. He's got Newcastle playing like you expect a Newcastle side to play with. I love what he's doing. I love what Fitz is doing. Ivan Cleary. You know, how can you discount Ivan Cleary? Yeah. 29:27 charging towards a minor premiership again. And for all the clubs over the years and all the powerhouse teams we've seen, no one's done what Penrith has done. 29:38 You know what I mean? And again, they have brick by brick built that club into a powerhouse under Cleary. And so you can't discount him. 29:50 Who else? 29:50 Robbo is another one that, you know... Thoughts on Robbo, Kenti? 29:55 Well, look... 30:00 He cherry-picks his team a lot, Robbo, right? As far as, for example, this week we were talking about the fact they're losing Nwonganudawasi and they're looking at bringing in, or the whispers are that they're looking at Herbie Farmworth. 30:15 But I love that about the Roosters, that they just don't, they aim high every time. 30:20 There's never a rebuild there, is there? 30:21 There's never a rebuild and there's never a, let's get this guy, he'll be okay. Mm. 30:27 It's always a conversation, I'm sure, between him and Nick is, mate, we're losing Nwonganoo. 30:34 We're losing Nwonganoo. Nwonganitawasi. We're losing. 30:41 The conversation is we're losing Marky Mark. 30:44 And... 30:46 who's the next best or who do we go after? They don't just sit there and think, well, who have we got? Who's out there? So I think Robbo's done a good job because they've got better as the year's got on as well. So earlier in the year, we were starting to sit there and think, well, hang on, they haven't really clicked here and they're not really doing what we thought they could do, the roosters. But as the year has got on, you know, Cherry Evans has been an interesting one. He hasn't really come and starred. 31:10 but he's held the team together. 31:12 Probably haven't needed him to star though, can't he? Because they've got so many other stars, right? 31:15 No, but we all did expect much, like a bit more from him, I think. And I think in many ways, he was brought there to do the Cooper Conk role, we all know, to basically guide him to the finals and grand final like Cooper did. 31:29 But through the season, we've seen the emergence of Sam Walker, who's probably the dominant playmaker there, over Cherry Evans. Cherry Evans almost cherry picks where he's got to have his input and where he just lets Sam run his team. 31:48 But Robert, the fact that he's been able to manage the pair of them as playmakers, I just think that they're a red-hot side. They're going to be right in it. They've done a great job. But the coach of the year is going to probably be the hardest one, I think, in many, many years. 32:06 I don't know who you go for, to be fair. And Cleary, By the way of what you just said, they're looking again. Last year was a bit of an anomaly. We don't know what happened last year. They started so poorly. 32:20 They had all those changes in their defensive positions, which took them longer to sort out than what we expected. But they got that right. It was about around 11 or something. They were running last at that point last year. And then they went on a run, just missed the top four, nearly made the grand final, and could have... 32:40 They're only like a booze away from their fifth straight premiership. 32:46 And yet here he is again. He's got them going for five out of six years. It's an extraordinary achievement what he's done. But how do you measure that against what Holbrook's done? 32:57 You know what I mean? You kind of want to wait. 33:00 We go through it every year because of the Dally M's and where they fall. You kind of wish it was made after the season because if Penrith win the comp, Cleary probably deserves Coach of the Year. If the Roosters do, Robbo probably deserves it or whoever else may end up doing this. I'll tell you, just back on Robbo, And you think about what he has done so well. I don't think there's a better example in the Roosters right now than James Tedesco. Like, I know he's their best player, but he went through that period where Teddy looked like he was done. 33:35 And Robbo and he have... 33:39 turned it all around, and Teddy's probably playing at 33 the best football of his life. And that, again, is coaching. We all know Teddy's a talent, but to keep that level of greatness into his mid-30s, that's a sign of what the coach has given him too. 33:57 Well, when he got dropped from Origin, everybody was saying, well, this is his last year, and he's just kept going. Now he's back in the Origin team. The thing I like about the Roosters is For many years, they got told that they just buy all their players. The way they've developed players through this young academy they've got is really the blueprint, I think, for how other clubs need to run their club based on bringing kids in young, putting them through school, putting them through the lower grades. 34:24 And the reason why I think it's interesting is because I've seen other clubs now trying to do a bit of the same, the Gold Coast, the Dragons, et cetera. People are trying to copy that model. 34:34 Thing is was, it's a funny thing. So the Roosters years ago, were a recruitment club. There's two types of club. There's development clubs and recruitment clubs. Penrith were a development club. 34:52 Parramatta were a development club. 34:56 The Roosters, they had no juniors or very few juniors. 35:00 So they were a recruitment club. South had all their juniors, they were a development club. So what happens is some clubs had bigger junior leagues and better talented junior leagues and that's where the good players were all being born and bred. But Roosters didn't have that. So what they did, they came across a strategy many years back, 20-odd years back, we'll just wait for others to develop them and then we'll just come in and pay more for them. That's what got them a bad reputation. 35:30 Now, to some extent, they're still that because they still don't have any juniors to speak of. They've taken out of Central Coast juniors, they try and do that, but what they're doing now is they're trying to do it both ways. So they're still a recruitment club. They'll still sit there. And if Penrith or Brisbane or someone's got a good kid coming through, they'll have every crack to get them. But they have gone and have taken over the Central Coast Rugby League as a junior area. They fund the area. They put money into it. 36:01 And they see that as one of their junior nurseries to try and get players through that way. And then they've done, on top of that, they've put... Things in place where they've got houses now in the eastern suburbs where they get the young kids in who are by this stage playing in their junior rep teams. They're flagging their ball and things like that. And they get them in there and they say to them, okay, put them in a house together. They have someone looking after the house. 36:30 They put them through school and they do all that. So they're doing that at every level. And that's where the game's heading as a whole. 36:38 And we will get to the stage where essentially every club will be doing a version of that in certain ways, if not doing it already. 36:46 They're going to do it now, yeah, because like there's so much competition for kids from the age of 14 years, you know, that all the talent scouts are out there and all the managers have got them tied up. And so it really becomes a battle for the teenagers to form, you know, your next generation. But one thing I do – when we're talking about the Roosters and the way that they bring in top players over the top of some of their own like they did with DCE this year over Savala, the best kid that's come out of the Central Coast system in recent years is playing 5'8 for Canberra. 37:27 Yeah. And he was a Rooster. You know what I mean? Yeah. So I would sometimes question if Ethan Strange had stayed with the Chooks and hadn't have gone to Canberra where the Raiders were desperate to give him an opportunity. He might have waited and waited and waited to get that opportunity at the Roosters. 37:46 Well, there was an inquiry in there when they lost him too. 37:49 They also did have a Senator Smith day too. He came through and he got squeezed out with Daley, Cherry Evans coming in and all the rest of it. And he's gone to Newcastle now. 38:00 Well, they've had a stack of hookers that have got – and Robson's now the latest one. They've brought and brought and brought. But you look at what's happened with Smith. He held the fort last week without Dylan Brown. 38:11 So he's one of those underrated players who, a bit Jack Coggerish, just comes in and gets the job done. And again, that's just good coaching. 38:23 It's interesting what they've done with Savala, isn't it? Because they've got young Rob Ball coming through who's supposed to be the superstar who were playing in the halves. And so they've recognised that with Savala who wanted to stay at the club because he's a boy at the club. He loves it and had opportunities to go to other clubs. He definitely did. And he chose to take... less money to stay at the Roosters. And they've transitioned him now to a great centre. Yeah. Recognising the game's probably changed a little bit too. You need better centres than you did probably two or three years now. 38:50 The other thing is, though, too, is the way teams now attack the edges so heavily. Like, there's every team, their left edge seems to be their weapon, so to speak, right? 39:02 Savala brings another dimension to it, though, because he's got good passing skills. 39:09 Hmm. 39:10 from his background as a half, right? Like he's six foot three or whatever he is. He's very big for a halfback. So he's an anomaly there in that regard. But the other part is he's bringing another attacking weapon out there in the centres and on that edge because every now and then he comes up with a pass normal centres don't come up with because he's got the hands of a half. So he's got a... 39:38 I think well done to him. He's really reinvented himself there. 39:42 He's almost creating a position that's not there. You don't want your centre's ball playing, so to speak. I get that. 39:51 But just to have that ability every now and then to throw an unorthodox pass, or one that no one sees coming because he's got the skills to do it. Like some centres, mate, they couldn't catch cold, you know what I mean? And they've got hands like feet, you know. They sit there and you watch them, they've got the most awkward pass in the world centre. It's fascinating you watch some of them. 40:13 They can't pass on the run. Once they get to a full sprint, their ability to pass just goes because they don't do it. Growing up, they just went and scored. 40:21 Exactly. So you're talking the elite of the elite. And a lot of those kids, when they come through, they didn't have to pass. 40:26 Didn't have to pass because they were always scoring the try. But Savala, he's got that ability out there now. He's had a couple of only flashes this year, but every now and then he's just done something. I just thought, wow, look at that. That's... And he beat the defence because they just weren't expecting somebody to be able to make that pass. 40:45 He also displayed that club first mentality too. Yeah. Where he couldn't get the spot he wanted last year, but he didn't throw the toys out of the cot. Yeah. He stayed and fought for his spot. You've got to love that. 40:59 Game starts in two. Got to be quick. 41:04 You need something quick, I got something blistering. Five for 25 from PointsBet. It's like hot sauce, but for sport. 41:11 Five taps, and it's on. 41:14 Yeah, that's hot. 41:15 Aw, thanks, babe. 41:17 Five for 25. Only available on PointsBet. Yeah, that's built differently. Imagine what you could be buying instead. For free and confidential support, call the number on the screen or visit the website. 41:27 It's interesting to talk about that changing the position in Savala. You think about other players who've done it over time. Can you think, I mean, Isaiah Yeo's been one, you know, who's changed that 13 position. 41:38 Think of any other guys who've really... Games are always going through an evolution, mate. Billy Slater changed the way fullbacks played. 41:46 Andrew Johns changed the way halfbacks played. People talk about Andrew Johns and a lot of people talk about how great he is and all the rest of it. 41:53 It's a little bit like... 41:55 It's a little bit like you look at the old Renaissance paintings. You know what I mean? And you look at some, you know, Da Vinci, whatever. What's so good about it? Like, everybody's doing that. 42:06 You've got to look at what came before and then what came after. 42:10 That's where you appreciate the impact that was made there. And Joey, like, if you looked at the way halfbacks played before Joey and how they all played after Joey, he changed the whole position. 42:24 And... 42:26 That's partly why he was so good. Ricky did too. Yeah, Ricky. I remember talking to Greg Alexander one day, and he was talking about Ricky. We were at work at Fox Sports. 42:41 When you're in the green room in the back, There's all sorts of shit that comes up, right? And some of it not for publication. 42:52 But anyway, I don't know how, but the conversation got on Ricky's kicking game. 43:00 And Brandy said, mate, he said, and this is when Penriths were at the top of their powers too. Penriths played two years in a row, won each in the grand final. He said, you'd play Canberra, And he said, mate, he said, you get the ball. He said, you grind up, Phil. He said, you kick it in the corner. He said, then you jam in defensively. He said, and you smash them. And he said, they get the ball on their 10-meter line, tackle five. He said, they're just getting past their quarter. 43:28 He said, and you think, right, we've dominated them in this set. We've got them. Because we've won the field position. He said, then Ricky get the ball. And he said, mate, you kick it. And he said, and you'd go. 43:38 And you'd watch it. And he said, it'd go all the way down the corner. He said, they put a good kick chase on. He said, then... 43:47 You grind your way out again. You get him back again. You get Cameron back in the corner. You jam in on it again. And he said, we'll get him this time. He said, Ricky, get the ball again. And that big kick he had just took all the pressure off. And you talk about changing the game. The evolution of defense in the 80s, it was the up and in defense, the umbrella defense that Warren Ryan popularized, right? 44:09 And what he did was, so the way the umbrella defense, for those that don't know, is the outside guys had to come up quicker in the line than the inside guys. 44:19 So you couldn't get the ball out wide. You kept having to turn it back in and counter out this monster pack to just bash you. 44:25 And that's how they beat you. Your outside backs didn't get the ball because they couldn't get it there quick enough. And they'd focus on just keeping the play in the middle and they'd beat you up defensively. 44:38 And no one could beat that kind of defence, really. Like occasionally he had the odd team would go, okay, the Parramatta back line was good enough here and there to get through it through the 80s. 44:51 And then what Sheens did when he was coaching Canberra, he had his hearts were either Henjack and Chris O'Sullivan, and Ricky was coming through in the lower grades. 45:01 Anyway, Sheens, he cottoned on. 45:03 Ricky had this pass. Ricky was able to throw a pass that was... 45:07 20, 25 metres. So he'd get the ball, and Steve Ward was his dummy half, and he'd get the ball, and he'd sling, he had a big pass as well, he'd sling it out to Ricky, Ricky'd get the ball, he'd sling it out to Laurie Daly, or Chris O'Sullivan back then playing halfback. 45:22 And they could throw the ball so far that By the time the Umbrella Defence had come up, they'd already got around it. And then, obviously, the 5'8", whoever that is, has passed it to Mount Meninga, River Wiggy or whatever. So that changed the game. So suddenly the Umbrella Defence lost its effectiveness because every team then went looking for somebody who could sling a ball 20 metres from halfback. And that's how they used, well, they changed the game that way. Then after that, the next evolution was, well, we can't beat that big long pass. 45:56 So what we're going to do is we're going to do the up and slide defence, which is they come up two steps and then they'd slide with the ball. So there's all sorts of evolutions always going through the game. And the smart ones figure out what's working. 46:11 Okay, how do we beat that? 46:13 And they changed the way they do that. Billy did that. Billy started hitting that sort of spot that all the centres hit. Before Billy, all the full-backs used to come running into the back line where the centres were. 46:31 And that's where they sort of – remember that? That's sort of where they try and – that's where chimes got chiming in. There you go. Chiming into the back line. So that happened that way. 46:42 But then Billy changed that because Billy started sitting around the ruck a lot more and started following the halfback on the inside rather than the outside and things like that. They started turning the ball in. 46:52 The game's constantly going through those sort of evolutions. 46:56 And, yeah, there's people who know more about the game than me who can talk you through all those. But that's what's – yeah, that's a really interesting part of the game, all that. 47:04 I also like how some coaches can recognise what a player's best talent is and allow them to play that style of football. And Ricky is a great example of his strength was his strength. But then you had Alan Langer at the same time. It was a completely different style of halfback. But Bennett allowed Langer to play his style, and now we're seeing it... 47:30 at the Roosters with Sam Walker and everyone wants to find or be the next Nathan Cleary, but Walker's taken it upon himself to say, no, I'm going to stick with my style. And you can almost see it emerging, maybe not now, he's not ready to take Nathan's spot, but in years to come, there could be this new challenge. It's almost like Ricky versus Alf again in these two contrasting styles, which I love. 47:56 Yeah, well, that's one of my... 48:02 One of the things I don't like about the game these days in some respects is if you go and look at the 80s, and we're old enough to remember that, a lot of people listening to this probably aren't, but Parramatta and Canterbury won four premierships each in the 80s. 48:17 Their first Canterbury team that won in 1980 were called the Entertainers. 48:22 And they had the Hughes brothers and the Mortimer brothers. And they just played a… Ted Glossop, wasn't it? Ted Glossop was coach. And they played a style of footy that was… They just threw the ball around. They were continually backing up. And the ball was never dead. Parramatta kind of took that model and improved upon it with the likes of Kenny… LR. Mick Cronin was the rock in the back line. Sterling, obviously, there. So they played. 48:53 One year, Parramatta had six of the seven backs in the State of Origin team. You know what I mean? They had a superstar back line. 49:01 But Canterbury went the other way. They were all about their forwards and they played that dogs of war type of game, just bashed everyone up. 49:10 And their styles couldn't have been more different, Parramatta and Canterbury. Yet they won four premierships each in the 80s. And then in the 90s, To your point, we had Canberra and Brisbane were the two dominant teams in the 90s, and one of the saddest things that ever happened was they never played each other in a grand final in the 90s. They never both got there at the same time. 49:30 No salary cap then, though, Kenty? 49:32 There was a salary cap then. But it wasn't a hit. 49:35 It just didn't exist. Well, it wasn't police. Well... 49:41 Slightly better than it is now. Slightly worse than it is now, I should say. Anyway, but yeah, and you look at the size they had, though. Two superstar teams. Yeah, Brisbane was somebody. But to your point, Ricky and Alfie, completely different halfbacks. Ricky got the ball, went wide, big, long pass. Alfie would more often than not look inside. 50:06 and was always showing outside playing inside. And Alfie was always about to – he had the short game. Ricky had the long kick and the long pass. Alfie had the little short grubber in behind the line and the short passes. 50:17 And both coaches were quite happy to let their halves play that way. They didn't try and turn one into what the other guy was doing. 50:27 And they built their team around how those two halves played. 50:33 They didn't try and say, listen, we need to... Tim Shoes didn't say, listen, we need to be more like Brisbane. We need to start doing this and that. And Canberra, by the same token, they didn't say... Brisbane, by the same token, Bennett didn't say, we need to be more like Canberra. They just played the way they played. These days, a lot of times, you take the jerseys off, you don't know who they are. If you just watch the style of play, they play. And that's one of my big criticisms of some of these lower teams. 51:02 All they're trying to do is be a poor replica of what Penrith are. 51:06 They just play Penrith-style football, just not as well as Penrith. And you think to yourself, well, how are you going to win a comp? How are you going to be any good? You might improve a little bit trying to play that style, but you're never going to beat the original. 51:20 playing a poorer version of the same kind of football. That's why the Roosters, now you talk about styles, the Roosters, their style matches up really poorly against Penrith's style. They've lost three out of 20, I think, is their record in recent years against Penrith. That said, though, the Roosters are really starting to really groove their style at the moment. 51:44 And I reckon they're slightly changing. I don't think they can – like I said, I don't know if they'll get them twice through the finals, but they've certainly got enough – with Sam Walker playing off the cuff the way he does and so hard to game plan against, the Roosters have got that ability now to just go out and just go boom and just really shock Penrith. 52:06 Let's talk about tonight's game, the Roosters playing Canterbury. And the reason I think it's important is not so long ago – Canterbury were in trouble, perceived trouble, right? Crawls, they've seemed to turn their season around. What do we look for tonight? What are we watching for? 52:22 If I was... 52:25 Thinking about this earlier in the week, well, they've beaten Penrith this year, haven't they, the Bulldogs? They've beaten the Warriors. 52:33 For mine, in recent times, when the Roosters have been put off tilt a little bit, it's in those emotional battles where the other team can get under their skin a little bit and just rattle them a bit, make them play a little bit differently. And that's... 52:49 Canterbury strength. Canterbury strength is to just unsettle the opposition when they, you know, when they're on their toes and they're up in your face and trying to cause trouble. And I'll say it respectfully using the bully boy tactics that they like to employ. 53:04 it can put the opposition off. And that's exactly what they did when they played Penrith earlier this year. 53:10 They rattled Cleary. Sorraldo is a defensive coach primarily. When he was an assistant, he was coaching defence. 53:17 And a big make-up of that is their aggression in defence and in-your-face smash-mouth football. We're just going to get up and we're going to pressure your halves. 53:29 Sorraldo's teams generally do a really good job with Nathan, probably better than any other coach. 53:35 And you could probably argue that that's because he worked with him for so many years and he does know his game and he's seen intimately Nathan's best games and worst games. And so he knows what works and what doesn't work. And one of the things they do is they do get very aggressive and they get in their face and they smash up. 53:53 the Panthers when they play well against them. 53:57 The difficulty of that is it takes so much energy to do, and it's very hard to replicate week after week after week. It really drains us. You've got to sort of almost get up for it. That's going to be the difficulty. I don't think they have quite the strength through the roster, Canterbury, to maintain that week after week. 54:19 but they can certainly do it once or twice. And they're going to be, if they make the semis, well, first week of the semis, there'll be an even money chance to win. 54:32 Then they'll come up against the loser of whoever loses in their first week from the top four. One of those teams. Two of those four, they'll potentially face depending on where they finish. And they're a real nuisance value there too. So to get on a run, I talked earlier about getting on a momentum sort of shift towards the semis. Canterbury, if they can do something like that, They can make an impact. 54:59 They were struggling at the start of the season with the six again rule. Can you see changes in the way they've approached the game or do you think the game has pulled back from the six again? 55:11 Oh, the game's pulled back from the six again. I was thinking when I was about to talk then, Crichton's moved to the halves. I didn't agree with it to start with, right, because he is. 55:22 If he's not the best centre in the world, he's in the top two or three, right? Yeah. But he's done what he had to do because the coach wanted him in there. Yeah. 55:32 It's also taken pressure off everyone else. You can see the smile again in Matt Burton's face. We've hardly spoken about Lockie Galvin in recent weeks because all the focus is on, can Critter do this job in the halves? Galvin's just out there. Again, I like the fact that Galvin, and we were talking about this off air too, the fact that Galvin is just prepared to do whatever the coach wants him and he knows he's not a halfback. 56:00 And he knows that that's not his best position, but he's doing exactly what – whether it means even a run out of yardage or handing over the kicking duties to Crichton or Burton or whatever it may be, Galvin just goes out there and does his job. And I also – I don't admire the way this all unfolded when he left the West Tigers, but I do admire the way the club has gathered around him and given him a bit of protection. And for a 21-year-old kid – He showed amazing courage to come through all that he's been through, a lot of it self-inflicted again, but to still be there doing his job out of position against these really great NRL teams. 56:45 I just think they do it. 56:47 They've had a funny year. I think, to answer your question, was they started poorly because the rules. All the teams that... 56:56 dominated by defence, struggled at the start of the season because of the NRL's rule change, which was announced in February before they really had time to adapt. 57:07 So Melbourne... They struggled and they've continued to struggle. 57:13 The Roosters, they weren't travelling anywhere near as well as beginning of the season. They are now, they've adapted. The other part too, there's no doubt the NRL have pulled back on the six agains. Now there was that flashpoint earlier in the year where the coaches came out and it was the coaches, it was Ivan, Bennett, Ricky, I don't know who else was in the meeting, but the coaches who were in that meeting with the NRL made that decision. 57:39 they came out and reminded the NRL that these six agains were not brought in every time you see something that's a little bit concerning, you call six again. They were brought in to replace a penalty. So they warranted a penalty call six again in that part of the field. But the referees at the start of the season just got carried away, and every time they saw something that might have been worth calling, they just called it. And we were getting 11, 12 a game. Now it's down about three or four a game or something like that. So it has, the NRL's, gone out a quiet chat. 58:13 I don't think they'll ever admit it, but they've gone out a quiet chat to the referees and just say, hey, let's just pull it back a bit. And that's evened it out a little bit more, and it's allowed teams to cater in that to sort of get back in the contest a bit. But they gave away so much ground at the start of the season, as a few of those seasons did. That's where it's remarkable what Penrith and the Roosters have done this year, because even Cronulla as well. Cronulla had a period They probably have improved quicker, but the Roosters and Penrith have been near the top all season because they cottoned on fairly early and were able to sort of still overcome the disadvantages in that new rule. 58:55 The last thing on the Bulldogs – What I found interesting about Serraldo was there was a lot of pressure after Sean O'Sullivan played that game and had basically memory match performance, two 40-20s. There was pressure on, he should start the game. Next week, Serraldo didn't listen to that. He went his own way and it's paid off for the Bulldogs at the moment. 59:17 O'Sullivan is a real... 59:22 He's as smart as there is as a halfback, but the fact of the matter is that he's also been to multiple clubs and he's never really nailed that starting spot. 59:33 I think there was a genuine feeling that, you know, Crichton's... 59:39 He's probably got more talent. O'Sullivan knows how to manage a game better. But I do admire what the coach has done here because he backed himself. And you see it with all the great coaches. 59:51 It doesn't matter what we think. 59:54 You know what I mean? They've got to be bullish about what they think and they've got to drive that through their team. And then that team's got to take it out on the field and believe in it. And the Bulldogs have done that with Crichton. And Crichton is clearly improving week by week in the role that he's playing. Like he's not a natural six, but just his ability to always, I've said it before, be present in the moment. When Kikau gets his hands free, Crichton's ready to go. When Crichton was playing Origin this year and he set up that try for Ethan Strange, you know what I mean? 60:25 He's always – he's there for the big play. And that can transfer, I think, between 5'8 and centre. It's never going to be his best position, but it's doing a job for them at the moment. 60:35 Yeah, I just think it's good coaching. I think, once again, it's – Sorraldo recognised what he can bring to the side, what the side needs, and he stuck it through. You go to some of the other clubs who, again, back to poor old Tigers, where they just said, oh, Dewey, you can have the seven then. 60:59 You know what I mean? 61:00 Well, let's talk about that because Galvin last year in the same position was under a lot of pressure from the move over, and now... 61:09 What are the similarities with the whole Dewey situation? Where is that at? 61:14 Look, it's like this was. 61:17 Let's just remember this, Ron. 61:20 Dewey, so let's start with Galvin last year. 61:24 Galvin never said he was walking out on the Tigers. That's not where it started. You go back to the seed of where all that started was Galvin was getting recognised for his talent. 61:38 Tigers came out and said, we're going to offer him a deal and we're going to extend it. We're going to extend his contract. 61:46 Galvin said, don't bother because when this contract's over, I'm leaving. 61:50 That shocked the Tigers. 61:52 Tigers said, what's up? And he said, I just don't think I'm learning enough here. I want to go elsewhere. 61:58 He never asked for release. He never said he wanted out. He just said, don't bother giving me an extension because I won't be signing it. 62:05 Now, that offended people. 62:08 There was the blow-up and all that ensued. The ghoul element came into it, best kid I've ever seen. Suddenly all this happened and then it became untenable. If you remember, they were going to have a meeting with the West management and his manager Isaac Moses had a dossier that he was going to present. 62:33 And whatever was in that dossier was enough to make the Tigers go, okay, let's organize something. Let's try and now make this as smooth as possible. And he was released. 62:47 The bit that really interests me is then you look at a guy like Luai this year, who exercises a clause in his contract that he can go and negotiate, goes and negotiates, signs a deal, The motive being more money. 63:06 And yet the difference between how both have been treated by Tigers fans. 63:11 Galvin never said, I want out. He never asked for more money. He just said, don't give me another extension because I'm not signing it. Yet he was vilified. 63:21 Whereas Luai has just taken more cash. 63:24 And good, yeah, we all get it, right? It's hard to knock back tax-free money. 63:29 But the incentive was purely and solely money after he signed a five-year deal where he said he's going to come in and turn the club around. 63:38 Two years into it, he's gone. 63:41 And yet there's hardly a bad word about it. Now, I'm not going to go out and hate on Luai about that, but I think we need to sort of sit back sometimes and see how... 63:50 When the narrative goes a certain way and no one will stop, firstly no one will try and change it, two, no one will apply any kind of critical thinking and say, hang on, is this how we should be looking at this? 64:04 Both cases, the narrative went a certain way and everyone just, like sheep out of abattoir, just followed the one in front and found out too late it was a bad decision. 64:15 Now you look at Dewey this year, right? So Dewey is what's happened with him. And no one agrees with what he did and all the rest of it. But I've said it before, it's not over, okay? 64:27 And without sort of getting too much into it, because I just can't say certain things, Dewey's complaints were very similar to what Galvin's were. 64:42 Culture complaints. Culture within the club. 64:45 Okay, very similar, pretty much overlapped. 64:50 And when he had his confrontation with Benji, that was his complaint about, what did he say, what was the word he used about the culture within the place, right? 65:02 Now, without getting into the specifics of that, Again, that made Benji go away and go, okay, well, let's, yeah, and that's where the Tigers really reel back from their criticism of what Dewey did. 65:15 But it hasn't been fixed in now. We're going on probably, what, nearly 18 months now from when Galvin raised the issue. Still hasn't been fixed. It's an issue within the club, and it's not been fixed. It doesn't sound like it's been fixed. And that's, yeah, sometimes there's things that happen in the game we've seen it at Parramatta at the moment, that are happening behind the scenes, out of the public eye, and should stay there. 65:46 Now the Tigers are aware of their problem, certainly what's been raised by, not now it's one player, but two of their playmakers, one who's already left the club and the other one who has a strong chance of still going, and they haven't addressed their issue. 66:04 Now they've got to fix that. 66:09 Benji comes very little criticism in the media because most of the people commentating on the game these days are ex-players of Benji's era. 66:21 So they're friends with Benji. They don't want to criticise him or what's happened there. They naturally side with Benji without knowing both sides. 66:33 And that's fine. I get, you know, I couldn't, good luck to them. You know what I mean? That's their thing. But Dewey's almost, he hasn't quite been ostracized and singled out like Galvin was. 66:50 It started to go that way until the Tigers pulled back and they had their love in last week where it was all happy families again. So the Tigers, if they learned one thing out of last year, it was that they didn't let this one go too far before it was irretrievable to fix. Now, I don't think it's going to go away. I think it's still a problem at the club. 67:11 And Benji's very lucky because he doesn't cop any criticism, okay? Okay. 67:18 But if you look, you said it this week on 360, they've actually won less games this year than they had by this time last year. 67:27 And if you take out the start of this season, which everyone's clinging to, mate, they won five out of seven at the start of the season. 67:34 You take that out, they're sitting down there with St. George Illawarra, right? 67:40 Right. 67:41 Well, actually worse. 67:42 Well, if you take those five games out, they're worse. But you even give them two of those games, right? That's where they're at. They're not getting better, the Tigers. There's this facade out there that they're getting better and they're on the improve. Not really. You take that seven-game period out of... 68:04 out of their last two seasons, nothing's changed. 68:07 They still won the games, though. They still won the games. 68:11 They did win it. Yeah, I'm saying that. 68:13 But to try and sort of have this... They haven't improved on last year's statistics, whether it comes to points scored, points conceded, one less win, with a team in Benji's third year that should be going forward. They haven't gone forward. And like you say, the next year they lose Luai, who they're literally paying Parramatta $500,000. 68:34 to take off their hands, and if they end up losing Dewey. 68:37 That's $20,000 a game. They're paying Parramatta $20,000 a game. 68:42 And if they lose Dewey, they'll be in a worse situation. The only thing I would pick you up on, talk about the Luai, and you're looking forward to this. Yeah, look at him. He's ears free. Luai's situation was different in that he was given the clauses in his contract. 69:00 Yeah. 69:01 and he was given permission by the club to go and speak to the Chiefs. And so the Tigers agreed to those terms. So you can't blow up about that. 69:08 I'm not blowing up about that. I'm more looking at the Tigers fans and their reaction to it. 69:13 And then on the Galvin situation. 69:15 Because from their point of view, though, from their point of view, Money was his only incentive. Now, I get where you understand that. 69:22 But with the Galvin situation, right? 69:24 Galvin's was about his football. 69:26 Hear me out for one second. You talk about Galvin going to the club and saying, don't offer me a new contract because I won't want to be here because I can learn more elsewhere. But you've also got to ask, Paul, and the thing that really pissed people off at the time was what come first, the chicken or the egg? Did he walk in and ask for that release prior to Gus saying he was the best teenager he'd ever seen and whoever this kid plays for is going to win premierships? Or did that come after? I think that's what caused all the angst among the fans at the time. 70:00 That's true. They thought they were being cheated. 70:03 And they also offered him five years, 1.2 million, highest teenager ever. 70:06 I think that's what caused so much animosity at the time. Don't you agree or not? 70:11 Yeah, but that was already... 70:14 The conversation had already begun by then, hadn't it? 70:17 Well, I'm not so sure. The timeline with Gus, I thought Gus's comments came a long time before all that. They came before it. 70:27 But he didn't ask for an extension, Galvin. No. He didn't – he wasn't fishing for – he didn't want anything to be done. He wasn't looking to get in the headlines. He wasn't doing any of that. No. So he was sitting back and it was the Tigers' decision to say, well, we're going to give the extension. All he did was say, don't bother because I'm not saying it. Now – 70:48 With a year and a half to go on his contract. 70:49 Well, then it erupted. Then it erupted. But if you look down, pure motive, he said, I don't want to stay here. I want to go. He didn't ask for it. He obviously got more money. But he said right at the beginning, I'm not learning enough. I want to go and learn elsewhere where I think I'll learn more about footy. The other bloke, straight out, it wasn't any discussion. It was just straight, it's more money. 71:12 And you're right in hindsight. A lot of the things that came out at the time with Galvin, has been replicated here almost with Dewey and that is a concern for the club. 71:23 And that's exactly, and it hasn't been, that is the deeper concern for the Tigers is that whatever was in the dossier last year has been quietly nudged forward again in the Dewey example and Tigers have just said, you know what, let's just quieten this down. 71:45 Do you know what's in the dossier, Kenty? 71:48 I can't say. 71:51 That's for the live show. 71:53 All right, guys, that's about it for us today. Thanks again, Crawles, Kenty. Until next week, thanks very much. Bye-bye. 72:04 Chances are you're about to lose. For free and confidential support, call the number on the screen or visit the website.